Vista nightmare

Published 2/10/07

All right, perhaps “nightmare” is too strong a word. For the most part, Windows Vista has been working just fine for me. But the other day I ran into one of the oddest problems I’ve ever had with a modern operating system.

I’ve run into odd problems before, and gone hunting online for some obscure fix, but that was always after doing something odd — after tweaking the wrong thing, or otherwise messing around the way a typical user would not.

In this case, though, I did nothing of the sort. Instead, I ran into an odd “feature” of Vista’s that caused me quite a headache.

I was playing around with a few different pieces of backup software, including Karen’s Replicator and Microsoft’s own SyncBack.

I was trying to backup my Vista user’s directory (C:\users\AK) to a second hard drive. I kept getting an odd error about a path being too long.

When I examined the log, I found that both pieces of software (as well as some others I tried) were trying to back up a folder with a path: C:\users\AK\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\ … and so on, ad infinitum.

Huh?

I Googled the phrase “Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\” and found the answer. At first I thought it was a problem with either my antivirus software or my anti-spyware software. It was neither.

It was a problem with Vista.

Previous version of Windows used a folder to store various settings for applications: C:\Users\<user>\Local Settings\Application Data. But Vista uses C:\users\<user>\AppData.

To make sure old programs can find the new folder, Microsoft added “junctions” — these are hidden files that redirect programs that try to access the old “Application Data” path; the junction sends the program to “AppData.”

But somehow I had run into an infinite loop. The backup packages were trying to back up the Application Data folder, and where redirected to the AppData folder. But somehow, in the AppData folder, there was some reference to Application Data.

So the software looped and looped forever.

Good going there, Microsoft.

I searched for a solution and found that there were a handful of obscure (and thankfully, free) programs for dealing with junctions. I tried two; one didn’t work, but I was able to get the second one to fix the problem, although I was warned that only an expert should even look at that kind of software because I was screwing with things I shouldn’t screw with.

I screwed, and everything worked.

Almost. I looked at my backup drive. The folder structure there was C:\Users\AK\Local Settings \Application Data \Application Data \Application Data \Application Data… and so on, many, many levels deep.

So deep, in fact, that I couldn’t get to the bottom! Instead, realizing that this was just a backup drive, I formatted it and re-ran the backup software. No problems.

I’m used to dealing with my computer like a car geek might deal with a ‘69 Camaro; I tinker and I suffer the consequences. But in this case I tinkered not, but I ran into the kind of problem that I doubt anyone who didn’t have a lot of experience could get out of.

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The Fray


Emily says:

How are “junctions” different from aliases and why would there have to be any special way to deal with them?

February 10th, 2007 at 3:10 PM

Andrew says:

They’re very similar, but Windows didn’t implement aliases/junctions the way Unix did — not until Vista. (It might have been in Windows 2000 Server, though.) Older Windows versions had shortcuts, which were simply pointer files. I could, say, delete the shortcut pointing to a folder and it wouldn’t affect the folder. But removing a junction would remove the folder.

I believe. Remember, I’m no Vista expert, and I stumbled and bumbled my way through this!

February 10th, 2007 at 10:19 PM

gnomic says:

Its enough to make you want to switch to a mac..

I’m looking seriously at switching to Linux. I’ve heard that Vista won’t play media files that do not have DRM encoding. I’m looking for confirmation

Source: Vista v. Linux http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT9727687530.html

Excerpt from part 3:

———————-
My test system’s high-end audio outputs are S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format) compliant. S/PDIF is probably the most common high-end audio port around for PCs today. It also has no built-in DRM (digital rights management) capability, and that turned out to be an important matter.

When I switched back to Vista, I tried to play Wilco’s Yankee Hotel Foxtrot CD. Whoops! Not a single sound emerged from my speakers. After a little investigation, I found that Vista disables media outputs that don’t incorporate DRM, when you try to play DRM protected media through them.

That was a kick in the head. I have a fully legal CD in my hand. Any other version of Windows will play it, Linux will play it, Mac OS will play it, and my CD player will play it, but if you’re using S/PDIF for your computer-driven audio and Vista, you’re out of luck. If you have a card with a Toslink optical digital audio port, you will be able to play it.

One of the ironies of the situation was that this very album had been first released on the Web without any DRM, in part as a protest against DRM. Ah well, that was yesterday.

There’s a very detailed report on just how Vista goes wrong with DRM, which I recommend to you. I’ll just content myself by saying an operating system — any operating system — is not the place for DRM.
—————————

This is a deal-breaker for using Vista for me.

February 11th, 2007 at 4:54 PM

tommy says:

many users and companies already don’t have a choice. microsoft started turning the screws in the last few months: you cannot buy Windows XP or get a new PC with it pre-installed anymore. not sure about activating recently purchased or reinstalled copies of XP (i assume they’ll let you activate for a while). but already with new pcs businesses have to buy vista or wait to upgrade users’ computers. although to an extent i can understand why they work this way, it’s a brutal and irritating tactic. that’s why i would consider swearing off vista, on principle alone.

February 12th, 2007 at 9:42 AM

Leland says:

I just got a Panasonic ToughBook that came loaded with XP. How long that availability is going to last, but for now it’s still an option.

I’m funny about machines that I own doing what I want them to do without checking with some unknown third party first. If I want to rip a CD to MP3, then the machine had bloody well better do so without question. If I choose to go in and modify a piece of code to streamline some operation for my own convenience, the machine had better not tell me I can’t do that. And it’s up to me to see to it the software I install is legitimate. Microsoft is not a law enforcement or investigative agency.

I will go to Linux or Mac before Vista. Hopefully Vista and consumer outrage will be the six foot long clue-by-four that knocks some sense into Microsoft and possibly sparks some life into Linux based systems…

Well, I can dream, can’t I?

February 13th, 2007 at 11:40 AM

Leland says:

The gamers are getting mad now…

From Today’s Slashdot:

“Computerworld is reporting that gamers who have installed Vista are reporting problems with first person-shooter titles such as CounterStrike, Half-Life 2, Doom 3. and F.E.A.R. (Users have compiled lists of games with Vista issues.) The complaints, which have turned up on gamers’ forums, cite crashes and low frame rates. Not surprisingly, the problems relate to graphics hardware and software: ‘Experts blame still-flaky software drivers, Vista’s complexity, and a dearth of new video cards optimized for Vista’s new rendering technology, DirectX 10. That’s despite promises from Microsoft that Vista is backwards-compatible with XP’s graphic engine, DirectX 9, and that it will support existing games. Meanwhile, games written to take advantage of DirectX 10 have been slow to emerge. And one Nvidia executive predicts that gamers may not routinely see games optimized for DirectX 10 until mid-2008.’”
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/12/2212248

You gotta love it!

February 15th, 2007 at 11:30 AM

Andrew says:

I have yet to try Far Cry (my game of choice), because I’m too nervous. :)

Vista seems fast on some things but strangely slow on others. Copying or moving a file is much slower than XP, but searches are wicked fast. I’m also finding more quirks, such as being unable to set Firefox as my default browser. (FF *says* it’s the default, but links in e-mail still opened in IE. That is, until I edited the Registry and fixed in manually; the “Set Program Defaults” thing didn’t help at all.

Vista is mostly fine, but I get the strong feeling it’s only 98 percent ready for prime time. My wife’s new machine came with it, so I’ll be curious how she does. It’s possible that some of my problems come from upgrading, but there’s no way to be sure.

February 15th, 2007 at 11:40 AM

Leland says:

Didn’t Microsoft get their collective noses swatted over the browser thing a few years ago?

February 15th, 2007 at 7:04 PM

Andrew says:

Yep, that they did. As much as I’d like to call this a deliberate attempt to force IE on us, I’m not so sure. “Never assign to malice what you can blame on stupidity.” There are enough odd quirks and problems with Vista that I’m inclined to believe it’s unintentional.

What’s driving me nuts is that the problems I have, I’m not solving with a simple setting change that I didn’t know about. I could accept being told, “Oh, the menu for that is under ‘System Settings’ not ‘Computer Settings’” or some such.

Instead, these fixes are hidden in the depths of the machine. They require Registry tweaks or — the latest one (99% CPU usage by some system components) delving into some of the more esoteric corners of the OS.

Luckily, others are having similar problems and I’m able to either find the solution or get pointed in the right direction. But in 2007 I shouldn’t have to fight with my computer to have it default to the browser of my choice.

February 15th, 2007 at 8:09 PM

Emily says:

While there arguably may be shortcomings to OS X, fortunately IE is not one of them. Microsoft hasn’t upgraded it’s Mac version for six years. Consequently, it’s gotten to the point where most modern websites won’t work on it. I like Firefox just fine and OS X has honored my choice for it to be my default browser.

At least MS has quit giving its operating systems year designations that are sometimes obsolete before the product is stable. On the other hand, I’ve been running 2000 Server happily for years and would have been quite happy to stop at 4.0 Server if MS had agreed.

February 15th, 2007 at 8:53 PM

GaryL says:

Vista is a bloated resource whore. Why pay for such a thing?

February 16th, 2007 at 2:06 AM

MickO says:

I’m having massive problems with Vista. I run an IT business in Australia. I sell computers with Vista and I can tell you that out of twenty sold this week, not one doesnt have problems.
Run in Administartor mode, compat XPSP2, seems to solve some probs. On the whole its anightmare.
1. I think the patches are going to come out fairly quickly
2. Computing is so huge now that how can 1 OS make such a leap wwithout running into proprietorial software conflict issues.
I think you can lay a bit of the blame on the non MS software vendors for not getting into the Beta programs.
Look, I hate the monopoly side of MS as much as the next guy.But what did we expect?
I’m sticking with XP for the next 6 months, using the free Vista upgrade.
MickO

February 19th, 2007 at 9:11 AM

TerminalDigit says:

A name/link to the program that worked for you would be extremely helpful to the people who arrive here after Googling for the same problem.

March 4th, 2007 at 5:00 AM

Tech Z Geek says:

WTF? Who the hell said you couldnt by XP anymore??? you needs do some research before you say you cannot get XP any more or activate it….jeez.

September 27th, 2007 at 10:20 AM

Leland says:

Tech Z,

We all thank you for taking the time to bring us your wisdom. We beg that you forgiveness our ignorance. After all, not everyone can be all knowing, all seeing Techno-God like yourself. After all, someone has to sweep the Techno-temple.

But let me bring you up to speed here. At the time all of this was written, Microsoft made loud and clear noises about yanking XP from the market as soon possible. The official Microsoft stance was that XP was dead and everyone should “migrate” to Vista as soon as possible.

Since that time market forces have changed Microsoft’s tune… for now.

September 27th, 2007 at 11:11 AM

Stu Kushner says:

When is the media and TPTB going to realize that Microsoft IS the PROBLEM. until they are split up and forced to separate the operationf system from the applications, we will have an industry without innovation. Microsoft has no competition. So, we get force fed their poorly written operating systems. Wait… why do we keep needing new operating systems? Just make the one we have work right. Oh, wait again. That’s right. Microsoft does eventually get the OS to work right just in time to give us a new one that STINKS.

Microsoft is killing the computer industry by making it impossible for application developers to compete and by forcing us to use poorly written operating systems.

I suggest that if you want to do us all a favor you will write a scorching article in USAtoday that tells the real truth about Microsoft. They are killing the computer industry. Look at your cell phone. It keeps advancing and advancing. Yet, the PC is stuck in the year 1995. No new real innovations. The excitement and the promise of the personal computer have disappeared. It is a gateway to the internet. Thankfully, Microsoft hasn’t ruined the internet applications too. They are trying to. They want it all and they don’t care who they hurt to get it.

Please make a difference. Reveal the truth about Microsoft.

December 20th, 2007 at 12:59 PM

Kill Gates says:

Maybe you should pray that Bill Gates gets cancer.

May 31st, 2008 at 12:23 AM

gnomic says:

First, praying to a god for something nasty to happen to someone you don’t like is not only sick and twisted, its the hallmark of a weak-willed person too chickensh*t to take action and accept the consequences.

Second, Micro$oft is a company out to make a profit. Don’t like them? quite buying thier products. Quit blaming them for your problems.

As for M$ holding back the industry - what you don’t seem to get is that M$ is trying to impose their view of the world to keep making that profit. Once again, start a competing view that has a compelling reason to make people switch, just like google and linux have done. Quit whining about how unfair life is and blaming everyone else.

I’m not defending M$, nor am I a particular fan of the company. I am old enough to remember life before M$ and it wasn’t pretty. I’d like to see a better OS (and VMware is an example of one!), but Linux is still dominated by geeks that don’t understand desktop resilience as the Mac geeks do. OF course, the Mac geeks don’t get the idea of deciding what hardware we want or tuning it for our purposes.

I’ve lived through no OS, AppleDos, CP/M, CMS, TSO, DOS, OS/2, 10 flavors of unix, windoze, linux, and a bunch more. Its not a religion (or it shouldn’t be. As greyrat once said to me, “All OSs are evil.”

May 31st, 2008 at 8:53 AM

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