Gun control and foolish pundits

Published 4/17/07

Left- and right-wingers are coming out of the woodwork, either claiming that Monday’s tragedy at Virginia Tech was caused by too much or too little gun control.

Both arguments are stupid. You can’t consider a broad policy based on one unlikely day.

Would stricter gun control in this country have made a difference? Maybe. Maybe it would have been harder for Cho Seung-hui to get the guns he used. But experience has shown us that people are pretty much able to get whatever illegal stuff they want. Outlaws would still have guns.

On the other side, the argument that it was the banning of guns on campus that allowed this to happen is just as foolish. It’s an incredibly narrow perspective that completely ignores the fact that there are 364 other days of the year.

You can’t say, “having armed students would have been good today, therefore it would be good every day.” You have to weigh the effects of having students armed every day — during stressful finals week, at weekend parties, while arguing over a grade, during a painful breakup.

Yes, it’s possible that an armed student populace would have stopped Monday’s tragedy in its tracks. From that perspective it would have been good had other students been armed and been able to use their weapons appropriately.

That’s only looking at a single, terrible, unlikely day, however. And those students would also come armed other days; they’d be carrying guns all the time.

That would obviously have effects — unknown effects — yet people ignore them. They ignore the all-too-real possibilities of drunken fights ending with gunshots, or professors and TAs threatened with violence, or troubled relationships having violent endings.

People tend to use the tools they’re given.

You can’t compare a known (what happened on 4/16) with an unknown (what having students armed every day would mean). Yet both sides are oh-so-sure they know what it would be like.

Robert Heinlein, I believe, quipped that “an armed society is a polite society,” and it’s a quote that people have used to explain what they think the effects would be. But there’s a problem with that sentiment.

An armed society would be polite out of fear, not out of respect. It’s a very important distinction. Living every day with respect for others is fine. But living in fear of your neighbors, the people on the road, the students in your class, the guy dancing with your girlfriend — that’s not good.

When the Soviets were in charge, the Moscow subways were among the cleanest in the world, because people there knew that Very Bad Things would happen if they were caught defacing it. So yeah, a society living in fear has some advantages.

So the bottom-line debate is this: On one side, hundreds of 18 to 21 year olds walking around campuses armed with guns, and all the danger that entails. On the other side, the potential to prevent a massacre like Monday’s from every happening.

No easy answers, despite what the pundits say.

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The Fray


Jeff St Real says:

Very well said. I don’t think it’s a long stretch to say an armed society might stop an incident such as yesterday’s from escalating, but there would be far more incidents, overall. Then what about the high schools, where so many of these tragedies have happened? I would hope we wouldn’t arm the teenagers, but who? The teachers? The lunch lady? The bus driver?

Take a look at modern day Zimbabwe. That’s the result of the intimidation and fear of an armed society. It ceases to be a society at all.

April 17th, 2007 at 12:51 PM

Emily says:

I think the danger would come from an armed lawless society. There’s no precedent for an armed law-abiding society in modern times. I think it would be an interesting experiment.

April 17th, 2007 at 1:11 PM

Andrew says:

That’s why I like you, Emily — you don’t just jump in with a knee-jerk reaction. Yeah, that would be an interesting experiment, although I wonder what you’d consider “law-abiding.” Do you mean that the people would generally obey the law? (Don’t we do that already?) Or that those in the experiment would never break it? (In which case, why would they need arms?)

[scratches chin]

April 17th, 2007 at 1:16 PM

Emily says:

Thanks, Andrew. I believe I was contrasting what exists in America with the example of modern day Zimbabwe that St. Real used. We are a fairly well behaved people, by and large. I don’t think being armed would change that in a negative way. There will always be violent acts perpetrated by antisocial people. What I would like to know is if the number of people killed or injured by violent acts would be greater or less if everyone was armed. Law-abiding citizens wouldn’t kill someone just because they could. The argument has been made that perhaps the death toll at VT would have been less had some civilians been properly armed.

I live in a state that allows the concealed carry of a handgun. We Texans are considered a bunch of savages anyway, but I haven’t seen much of a bloodbath since we armed ourselves. Maybe Heinlein was right. At any rate, if you are going to go on a shooting spree, you’re going to have to watch your back. I think that’s only fair.

April 17th, 2007 at 1:37 PM

Andrew says:

Oh, I think there’s little doubt that had some students been armed this a good chance we would only be looking at a handful of victims. But the bigger question is (as you brought up): What else would happen if everyone was armed?

I don’t know the violent-crime rate in Texas compared to other places and correlated with gun laws, so I don’t know what difference it makes. (Nor would saying “Texas has fewer violent crimes per capita than other states” necessarily mean anything; there are too many factors at play.)

I wonder what students would think of going to a campus where lots of others were armed. I wonder what they’d think of going to a party there. [shrug] Dunno. But there sure aren’t easy answers the way too many people think there are.

April 17th, 2007 at 1:44 PM

Emily says:

I don’t know the answer to the important question of whether or not states with right to carry have experienced a lower incidence of violent crime or perhaps a lower rate of increase. I do know that in the case of Texas, the incidence of criminal shootings by holders of concealed carry licenses is essentially none.

I think how students would react in the example of going to an armed campus would depend on where they were. So would probably shrug and say they would expect some of their classmates to be armed and others would be quite alarmed at the thought.

The only easy answer is your “there sure aren’t easy answers”.

As an aside, one of the cool things about the Internet, is that you can have these discussions with no clear resolution your whole life, just like in college. :-)

April 17th, 2007 at 2:02 PM

Martin Sims says:

We could be talking about the need to get tougher on domestic violence, or about how to better identify mental illnesses that could result in the injury or death of innocent people. We could be talking about a general alarm system that could be implemented campus-wide to immediately alert the staff and student body in such emergencies so that the people being directly affected would know to either hunker down and bar themselves in or evacuate the campus. We could be talking about making such large and public institutions prepare a link to any video/audio monitoring equipement so that police can immediately see or hear who, what, where and as a result be better able to respond to intruders exhibiting deadly intent.

Blaming guns will not prevent this type of crime from happening again. Just as blaming the car would not prevent a drunk driver from getting behind the wheel again. We need to have a honest look at practical measures that will allow for rapid alert and effective response on all school campuses in our country.

April 17th, 2007 at 3:08 PM

Bunc says:

I did a simple test. I went to wikedpedia and I looked up school/university massacres (lets forget the ones that dont take place in educational establishments for the moment). there was a list of twenty or more dating back to the 1800’s. Guess how many weren’t in the US? About a handful. the rest were in the US - home of gun culture. How many were I live in the UK - just 1. No guns = no gun massacres. Then lests talk about your average of 80 gun deaths a day, and the other gun toting serial killers - you get my drift.

Now the problem is that we start from different points. Your society is awash with guns so becoming gun free just aint going to happen (mores the pity). We have never been awash with guns like you are so we can try to control them - though we have seen a rise in gun crime - but nothing remotely like yours. Seems to me as a friendly-to-the-US observer that some measure of gun control would be a more than sensible response. What control? - well thats for you. How about these of the top of the head;

1) Raise the ownership/purchase age to 30
2) Gun purchase only on production of recently signed doctors letter confirming mental state.
3) Gun ownership only on proof of no convictions and positive police vetting
4) Ban on all automatic/assault type guns.

Can your society really be so fragile that it would fall apart if people were prevented from buying guns of incredible power at will? Surely it doesnt say much for your civic society if it does.

Anyway - regardless of that debate - it is a terrible thing that has happened and folk over here are very saddened and shocked by it all.

April 17th, 2007 at 5:33 PM

Malcolm says:

When will the voice of reason prevail? One can speculate until you know where freezes over about whether students with guns might have reduced the carnage at Virginia Tech (I shudder to think about the “collateral damage”). However, since short arms and high velocity repeating rifles with magazines with more than 5 cartridges are really about reaching out and touching others with deadly intent is’nt it time to reduce the numbers of such deadly fire arms rather than try to justify having them. Its not enough just to say that criminals will get access to guns in spite of controls and use this as an excuse to carry weapons. Lets get rid of as many of these things as possible. I was in L.A. some years ago and a police officer got into a fight and was shot with her own sidearm. Had she not been carrying it she would probably be alive today.
I have travelled in Europe and Asia extensively and have never in all my experiances felt the need to be armed. I think having a firearm creates a mentality of invulnerability and provides an excuse to esculate an argument up to and including the use of the weapon. The ability to communicate effectively has stood me in good stead for over 60 years even in the middle of some pretty difficult situations.

April 17th, 2007 at 5:39 PM

Anonymous says:

Taking the gun debate in its natural course, if individuals have the right to defend themselves from other gun owners, who might use their guns to attack these individuals, why shouldn’t nation states have the same right to defend themselves from other nation states that have such weapons?

You get my drift.

April 17th, 2007 at 8:12 PM

Leland says:

Many of you are over looking the Allegheny Law School shooting where the shooting was stopped by two students. Those students went to their own cars, got their own guns and stopped the assault. Then they held the shooter for police.

Many of the news outlets (including the network I was working for) felt that was not “an important element of the story.” As odd as it may seem, the New York Times did run that part of the story.

April 18th, 2007 at 2:57 AM

Andrew says:

No one’s overlooking that, Leland. I said very clearly that armed students would likely have been able to stop what happened Monday. My point is that you can’t base a debate on a single day; you also have to take into account the effects of having multiple students walking around armed every day.

You can’t simply say, “Armed students would have prevented 4/16, therefore armed students must be a good idea.” It may be true, but a single, terrible day can’t be the basis for policy.

April 18th, 2007 at 6:17 AM

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