Dan Radmacher says:

Andrew, Andrew, Andrew.

You’re letter your irrational hatred of all things Apple cloud your judgment and affect your accuracy.

Apple is FORCING no one to download its browser. It’s offering the option through the Software Update panel. It’s completely voluntary. How is that a crime?

By the way, even if Apple did force iTunes users to download Safari, it couldn’t make them use it, which would mean their market share would be unaffected.

Take a deep breath, my friend, and let it out slowly.

Dave says:

Dan, it’s not really an option for the computer illiterate. The option is already selected, and 99.9% of Joe Schmoe computer users would never think to look at the Software Update panel.

So, in essence, they are forcing it on you. They are pre-selecting it in a place that a normal person would never think to look.

How pissed would you be if every time you installed a program Yahoo toolbar magically appeared without you installing or wanting it only to find out that it’s be predetermined that you WILL get it whether you like it or not because the option to not get it is located somewhere else?

Dan says:

Maybe the Windows version works differently than the Mac version, but on a Mac, Software Update pops up and you have to tell it that you want to install the recommended software.

In any case, Apple still can’t force anyone to use Safari, which makes Andrew’s point about market share pretty ludicrous.

Steve says:

It’s still pushy, regardless, and yes MS would catch the 3rd degree if they tried such a stunt.

I actually did install it, but that’s only ‘cos I’m a web designer and hadn’t done so yet for testing purposes.

Lord knows I wouldn’t use it for anything else. Firefox is so much better than IE and has so many useful plugins, I don’t think people should use anything else!

gnomic says:

Thanks for the warning! I caught Apple trying to sneak it onto my wife’s PC with an iTunes update. It still overwrites the media player with quacktunes. Apple software may work on the Mac, but its junk under Windows. I ditched itunes after an update crashed my computer every time it iTunes started.

BTW, if you want to get rid of the POS iTunes, Media Monkey is a great replacement. Although it doesn’t have podcast support, you can get album images, level set volume, organize all the files into a consistent directory structure, and clean up the tags with 5 keystrokes and as many mouse clicks.

gnomic says:

And companies measure market share differently and lie to their best advantage. The PR release will read “Safari is installed on XX% of desktops and users reports 110% satisfaction” Of course they won’t say tath 12 of them are using it, and the 6 satisfaction surveys were filled out by the development team that wrote it and submitted twice. Before you start insulting the technology reporter, you might want to get a clue as to how this business really works or read “How to Lie with Statistics.”

explorin says:

I love all the paranoia over a browser with such a miniscule market share.

Best line:

“So now Apple is installing an entire Web browser without my permission.”

An ENTIRE web browser! My goodness! And without your permission! Clearly you don’t have a clue what most programs install in your machine, in umpteen directories, so demonizing the fact that Apple gives someone the option (even if pre-checked) really means it’s a major threat to the computer illiterate, as pointed out here. It’s so refreshing how you point out how we might react if Microsoft did the same– oh wait, they do. With dozens of programs and utilities.

And hey- I’d love it if MS tried to install something extra on my Mac- that would mean they were still developing browsers and media players for it. Hey, at least we have a Microsoft Office that’s light years away from your latest Windows version– and all it’s components, whether I wanted them or not, are installed and/or pre-checked. The horror!

Andrew says:

Yes, an entire Web browser — not a plugin, an addon, or a bug fix.

Yes, other packages add unwanted software, but it’s usually spyware or other junk (or the Yahoo toolbar). But they all ask during the installation; they don’t go forth and download them on your behalf.

And how does Microsoft do the same? Is there a single Microsoft program that, after you’ve installed it, automatically installs software you don’t ask for (let alone “dozens”)?

Or did you just make that up?

Sure, you get bugfixes and updates, but you don’t see Microsoft saying, “Guess what? We just installed an entirely new product!”

As I pointed out, it’s par for the course with Apple. “We just know you want Quicktime in your QuickLaunch bar, and we know you want to to automatically start up, so we don’t need to ask you about that.”

gnomic says:

Best line: I’d love it if MS tried to install something extra on my Mac.

So for all the whining about MS, Apple fans are that desperate for software?

I could care less if Apple gains or loses market share. I don’t like it with Apple, Sony, MS or any company sneaks crap I don’t want or need onto my machine. Its all just spam in a different wrapper.

Andrew says:

Good point! If I were Mac Daily News, my headline could be “Mac uses beg for Microsoft products.”

explorin says:

Haha…

“Good point! If I were Mac Daily News, my headline could be ‘Mac uses beg for Microsoft products.’”

Begging… wow. Nope, I’m just for competition. I don’t think Safari’s better than Firefox, and if MS were serious with I.E. they’d be working to tighten the code across platform. I think all platforms should have a go- it makes for better products. But hey- again, Mac users get a fabulous version of Office (don’t worry, you’ll get their benefits eventually); I think that Quicktime deserves more competition than it gets. iTunes needs a far better, major corp. competitor than the crap Windows Media player and suite (on either side). And nobody’s using Windows Messenger (or for that matter MS’ social networking platform, “Windows Live Spaces”).

And then there’s this gem:
“And how does Microsoft do the same? Is there a single Microsoft program that, after you’ve installed it, automatically installs software you don’t ask for?”

Let’s see, I already mentioned how you can’t cherry-pick in Office. Then there’s the insidious “Genuine Advantage” program that was far worse than a browser. I think what’s so fabulous is how nobody here is willing to take your own cynical and critical eye towards one of the biggest offenders in the biz.
To wit:
I can’t believe anyone can ask with a straight face whether Microsoft installs things you don’t ask for– what do you think is inside any copy of Windows you install? Dear Andrew, when you just did a clean install of your entire system (a practice that is strange and foreign to non-Windows users, and unnecessary) di you somehow manage to ONLY install the system itself? No extraneous MS media players, applications, control panels, extensions, etc.? I certainly look forward to reading your rant about all the things Windows installed that you didn’t “beg” for.

So does MS need to install much extra in forthcoming products? Nope, because you likely had most pre-installed (and yet with Genuine Advantage they still found reason to).

Hey, if you’re in love with your own opinion, fine — just take the same critical eye to your own platforms. That’s all I’m asking. I just also happen to think you’re making a storm in a teacup over a single, inferior browser being installed.

Andrew says:

Oh, Microsoft loads my system with a host of unnecessary bloatware — no doubt. But it doesn’t install entirely new products after the fact.

“I think what’s so fabulous is how nobody here is willing to take your own cynical and critical eye towards one of the biggest offenders in the biz.”

Er. My post wasn’t about Microsoft. It was about Apple. It’s as if I said, “Jones is a lousy shortstop” and you replied, “But I don’t hear you complaining about Smith.” Smith might be lousy, too, but one has nothing to do with the other.

(As an aside, there are folks out there who create pirated versions of Windows with the bloatware removed. It’s pathetic that they have to do that, I agree. But I’m glad they do.)

Andrew says:

PS: I could make a long list of the other ways Windows sucks. But 1) many others have, and 2) it’s not news. When Vista came out I wrote a long rant about how awful it was. So I do pound on MS when it deserves it, believe me!

gnomic says:

Mozilla CEO: Apple Auto-Installing Safari 3.1 “Borders on Malware” http://gizmodo.com/371013/mozilla-ceo-apple-auto+installing-safari-31-borders-on-malware

Andrew says:

To be fair, there are certainly people who think there’s nothing wrong with it — smart, well-spoken, mature folks. Take popular blogger “The Angry Drunk“:

Apparently some of the whiny twats in the blogokleinbottle are up in arms that Apple offered up Safari 3.1 for Windows in the Software Update tool that gets installed with iTunes/QuickTime on Windows. My take: here’s a douche to wash the sand out of your achy achy vaginas.

(If you read his site, you see that he’s one of those folks who equates an argument’s nastiness with its strength — kinda like we used to do in third grade. Referring to a blogger he doesn’t like, for example, he writes, “[H]is blog has a whopping 2 posts, and they’re both mind bogglingly retarded.”)

I’m not very smart, either, but at least I know that cursing like I’m eight doesn’t make me sound brighter.

gnomic says:

Well, if we gonna start being nice and all, I agree with explorin and the EU about MS installing all the unwanted and unneeded application crud on my PC when I install Windows.

Morkleb says:

Thanks for the heads up, I got my update today, and I said ‘no thank you.’

Normally I don’t even look at the update, because they don’t include crap like that… So I would have been on of those people that had Safari installed and didn’t know how it got there.

Randy says:

Thanks for the Quicktime Alternative reminder. Need to put that on a couple systems at home.

alt opinion says:

From Fake Steve Jobs:

http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2008/03/dear-john-lilly-of-mozilla-you-are.html

So it’s like this. We’re now using Software Update to force-feed Safari onto Windows machines alongside iTunes. Legal? Absolutely. Sneaky? Not really. But John Lilly, the dude who runs Mozilla (see smarmy photo above), has got a pile of sand in his man-crack and is blasting us big-time, saying our attack strategy “borders on malware distribution practices.” Um, right. Safari is malware. Uh-huh. And the iPod is an assault rifle.

Goddammit! I friggin hate the way freetards always turn into little namby-pamby goody-two-shoes pussies whenever they face the least little bit of competition. Look. If you want the truth, check out John Paczkowski of AllThingsD, who dares to speak truth to power and dish the dirt about Mozilla’s craven attempt to smear us as bad guys when really they’re just scared of a little competition.

As Paczkowski points out, the real story here is that the Mozilla Foundation dresses itself up as a nonprofit but then runs a for-profit Mozilla Corp. that makes a frigload of money by sticking a Google search box in its browser. And now they’re freaking out because now we’re going to take some of their market share away. Capeesh? Follow the money, as Sartre once said. Another dude who’s figured this out is Larry Dignan of ZDnet. See his piece here.

Of course John Lilly, the smarmy Mozilla boy, has responded by hassling these brave, truth-telling hacks and insisting that money has nothing to do with it and Mozilla isn’t about making money it’s about changing the world and planting flowers and getting Jerry’s kids up out of those wheelchairs. Yeah. Right. You know what it means when someone says it’s not about the money? It’s about the money.

For a reality check, see this post on Valleywag about Mitchell Baker, the former head of Mozilla, making $500,000 a year for overseeing an army of freetard drones. Or see the original piece from the New York Times where Ms. Baker acknowledges the $500,000 but says it’s peanuts. And, um, Mozilla isn’t about the money. Really. See, cause they’re different. They’re all altruistic and shit. Finally, check out this very altruistic $80,000 BMW M5 with a MOZILLA license plate which may or may not be driven by Mitchell Baker or some other top Mozilla executive, according to Valleywag. I’m sure whoever drives this car will tell you that here in Silicon Valley an M5 isn’t even that cool a car, and it’s no big deal, because we’re the good guys and we don’t care about money and blah blah blah. Hoo boy. This stuff makes me madder than George Michael with an empty bag of crystal meth, as Ed Anger would say.

lionemom says:

Andrew, I have to agree with you, having avoided installing iTunes on my computer because I can’t stand the Apple Software Updater (on WINDOWS for you Apple FanBoy readers…)

Here is some great info and screen shots on the comparison between Windows Updates and the Apple Software Updater!

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=405

Chuck Staples says:

Gosh, if the checkbox had been left unchecked, imagine all the trees that would have been left standing and webpages that wouldn’t need archiving.

My kingdom for a blank checkbox (and the sense to actually read to what I’m giving my permission to alter).